Glacier Harness

[Idris]

Trying to lighten up my glacier harness….this is the one I’ve been dragging around for the last 3 seasons..

http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic22694.jpg

And unfortunately I have had to use every bit of gear on it in anger…not my fault I come across idiots who have fallen down holes!…I have reverted to my lighter harness to begin with….not so comfy to hang in but I’m skiing not big wall climbing…and removed a few biners/gone lightweight on others….

http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic22695.jpg

Am I cutting too fine or should I just pack a belay device and not much else like a lot of guys on the hill….still haven’t found anything lighter that I’ll trust rope wise than 8mm 30m…and Ali crampons – I’m just not going there

[Telepath]

I am carrying a few more biners and slings than you; like to have some extra stuff if I need to bury skis or packs to make anchors etc. Also nice to be able to leave a rappel anchor behind and still have enough gear for the glacier. Sometimes I carry two screws; kinda depends on who I am with and what gear they have etc. Using the BD Alpine Bod; best skiing harness I've seen so far.

8mm rando rope (Beal I think), 30 or 50 metres depending on routes. I am not overly obsessed with weight though, after all I'm often dragging around Big Daddies with 1018 binders and Alpine Trekkers etc. anyways.

[Glisseur]

I think it seems like you can't really cut out more stuff than you've already have and still stay safe. Skiing around with nothing more than a belay device will just only do it for rappelling and nothing else, I guess you'll appreciate some more gear when either you or one of your buddies is stuck deep down in a crevasse. Maybe you could leave the eight home and belay/rappel on a HMS knot (or whatever you call it) but that's as far as I'd go. A few extra slings would be nice to have as Telepath writes, they practically weigh nothing so that shouldn't be an issue.

A thinner static rope would definitely lighten up the overall load and is super nice for rappelling but is not really recommended for glacier travel while walking tied in. But then again, how often do you actually do that?

[Mulletizer]

I wouldn't go with less than that either. Personally I carry more. Fortunately I have never had to use it in anger but when I practiced I realised I really didn't want to have any less gear.

While we're on crevasse kit... Not that you suggest it but I just don't understand people who think they don't need pulleys to do a crevasse rescue. Have they ever seen the load on a pulley system create by friction from not using pulleys? Enough to pull out most anchors. A friend up here reckoned he had the most bomber anchor ever to practice with (a fuck off big rock) - when he loaded it all he bent one of his carabiners permanently open. I was surprised his rope hadn't broken first personally.

I also never carry Tiblocs. I don't understand them either. Any consoldation in the pulley that loads the rope slightly (if the rope were to dig into a crack in the ice on the lip suddenly or the rescuee were to fall a little whilst trying to climb over the lip) is likely to make those little teeth cut the rope. Sure they're faster and simpler. But prussiks work pretty well it you know what you're doing. Yeah, they might wet and freeze - but not in the time it takes to do a crevasse rescue.

I also have a Bod. Swear by it. Mine has the nice fleece belt padding. I guess I am more of a pansy than Telepath. ;)

[Telepath]

Originally posted by Mulletizer
While we're on crevasse kit... Not that you suggest it but I just don't understand people who think they don't need pulleys to do a crevasse rescue

Aggree on that one. I carry some of the lightest Petzt ones, the orange plastic wheely thing on a lightweight alu casing. Even lighter than that are the orange pulley wheels sold separately, but they are a bitch to work with I think. If I were in Idris shoes (or those of his buddies...) I would make sure he got himself at least one small pulley, preferably two to be able to set up a good pulley system yourself.

Actually I thought it was two small pulleys on Idris' screw biners, but upon closer look it's two DMM (ropeman?) ropecleats/whatevers. Those do work nice imo, better than the tiblocs (that I however have been using quite a bit myself with decent success; though without care they do eat rope as Mulletizer says).

And yep; Glisseur has definately got a point on the static rope thing, I seldom walk up a glacier while tied in. I got myself a longer rando rope (50m) much on his advice (La Grave has got some long-ass rappels) but due to injuries I unfortunately didn't get to play with it as much as I wanted. And the bulky fukkr sure does take a decent amount of space and add weight. Looking at some static 7mm rescue ropes I have been considering getting one of those too to use on days where I will only be rapelling off stuff etc. There are a few good brakes out now that handle such narrow ropes; especially when rappelling off double ropes (almost always).

[Dr. Crash]

I think you're pretty much lightweight already.

You may want to save weight in the harness itself. Cassin has a harness that weighs even less than the Petzl Pandion, I think its name is the Eolo, it's even padded but real expensive. $ for weight (and if you need more than 2 gear loops) the BD Alpine Bod doesn't seem like you can beat it though, but it's 150 g more than the Eolo. I'm still trying to decide what to put my money into myself (I've got an older Alpine Bod on loan for now).

The gear sounds about right, and I'd add a pulley to it. Not one of those plastic ones, more something like a Petzl Mini which will mind a prusik, though check it with a small rope diameter first. The Mini is also nice in that the pulley is on sealed ball bearings, which is the main reason I got that one.

You could rappel and belay off a Muenter hitch, if you don't want to carry the eight. That will definitely work well.

I am sure I carry a bit more than you, especially roped up (so far just one trip) with all those prusiks (harness, foot, pack). But then I'm also one of those heavy skis + Trekkers guys.

drC

[Theodore]

Harness looks about as light as a BD Alpine Bod, and you seem to be ok otherwise. You probably could pare a few grams on lighter biners, but my best sugestion would be to get rid of the fig. 8. Those thing twist the rope like nothing else. Get an ATC. That would be my recomendation.

[Glisseur]

The Petzl Reversino belay/rappel device is made for smaller rope diameters (7.5 to 8.2 mm), is super lightweight and works flawlessly without twisting the rope. I've used the bigger sized Revorso for two seasons now but I'm definitely getting one of these any day now (gotta spend my end of the season savings you know :)).

http://www.petzl.com/images/Produits/Produit_Image_458.jpg

Go for a harness like the Alpine Bod or something similar (non padded), get some fairly lightweight biners and ice screw, some Tiblocs or prussiks, some sort of pulley device and a dasiy chain or a sling. That's the minimum gear you actually need for skiing on a glacier, why nitpick with a few grams here and there? We're not competing in ski mountaineering here, are we? The main reason imo is to be able to rappel of some stuff and get yourself or your buddies out of a crevass in case of an accident.

I've seen quite a lot of rando freaks around here and they go for a super light touring setup like Dynafit skis, boots and bindings, dress up in tight clothes (yikes!) but they still carry a lot more gear on their harnesses than that. Go lightweight where it's possible and get used to ski with the extra weight, it's not THAT heavy after all.

[cmor]

While we're on crevasse kit... Not that you suggest it but I just don't understand people who think they don't need pulleys to do a crevasse rescue

I personally haven't had a problem not using pulleys. But I've also never compared a pulley and non-pulley system side by side. Perhaps I'm missing out. All of my glacier travel has involved subsequent alpine routes though, so I'm usually roped into a 10mm rope that should be able to take that bit of extra tension.

[Dr. Crash]

cmor, it's not about the rope not being able to take the tension, it's about all the energy (your precious pulling energy) being lost in friction in the carabiners instead of pulleys. That's why I carry a Mini too, it's on sealed ball bearings; REI and CMI (?) pulleys are not.

drC

[Mulletizer]

Originally posted by Dr. Crash
cmor, it's not about the rope not being able to take the tension, it's about all the energy (your precious pulling energy) being lost in friction in the carabiners instead of pulleys. That's why I carry a Mini too, it's on sealed ball bearings; REI and CMI (?) pulleys are not.

drC

Yeah, and the rope stretches as a result. This creates a huge store of energy in the rope, loading the anchors a lot more and potentially breaking the rope.

Pulling an unconscious casualty out of a crevasse alone is a total bitch anyway, even with a decent pulley system (using wheels) with relatively little extra friction (from the snow, the crevasse lip, etc.)

[cmor]

And the wicked delayed response:

Another quick trick in a pinch is to just double up the biners so the rope has a bigger diameter to run over.

[G]

Whoa, things must be getting a little crazy there in pennsylvania.

[snorkeldeep]

what do you guys think about the reversino vs atc xp on beal rando 8mm rope?

[G]

Here's a good compromise for a pulley:

Petzl ULTRALEGERE - Ultra lightweight nylon pulley for emergency use

slides onto a caribiner

It's tiny, and wieghs ten grams!

[AltaPowderDaze]

don't know about the reversino, but the xp is nice. you can use the regular side for quick raps on 9mm and up or swap over to the high friction side for accessory cord (7mm) on down to some really thin shit. if you've ever tried to rap on a atc with acc cord you will appreciate this one.

[snorkeldeep]

using it on 8mm rando, so this is probably the way to go. cool, thanks.

[CantDog]

I've been using the reverso for a few weeks now and I really like it. Raps and belays really nice, and has the added autoblock function(which I havent used yet). The sucker does get hot though, I noticed it more than I have on an ATC.

[powwrangler]

maybe try using some sort of spectra slings rather than the tubular webbing. I wouldn't completely replace the webbing with long spactra slings,but maybe one of them. I can't tell how long the webbing really is anyway.

[cj001f]

Originally posted by Geoff
Here's a good compromise for a pulley:

Petzl ULTRALEGERE - Ultra lightweight nylon pulley for emergency use

slides onto a caribiner

It's tiny, and wieghs ten grams!

I've yet to find a decent biner that doesn't weigh a ton that the ultralegere will actually rotate on.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Bump, good info here.

[bad_roo]

Alpine Bod killed my nuts - swapped it for Mrs Roo's DMM.

I carry a Beal 50m rando rope
Black Diamond ATC
2 Petzl Swingcheek pulleys
2 Petzl Tiblocs
2 Prussik Loops
1 Ice Screw
1 Locking Carabiner
1 Quick Draw
2 Clip Biners
1 Sling
Salewa Speed Axe
Salewa Crampons

Hear what you're saying about the Tiblocs, but they come in so handy as a device that manages itself when you're working solo.

[sfotex]

maybe try using some sort of spectra slings rather than the tubular webbing. I wouldn't completely replace the webbing with long spactra slings,but maybe one of them. I can't tell how long the webbing really is anyway.

I would stay away from spectra slings- you can't tie water knots in it b/c the knot will slip- and you can't use it with an autoblock b/c of the low melting temp.

[sfotex]

Has anyone here ever tried the dmm revolver biners with the built-in pulleys for light self rescue work? If they were a little cheaper I might be tempted to try 'em out myself...

http://www.mtntools.com/cat/rclimb/biners/dmmrevolvercarabiners.htm

[skinnyskier]

I've yet to find a decent biner that doesn't weigh a ton that the ultralegere will actually rotate on.

2nd that. Petzl says use them with their (heavy) locking oval.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Who backs up there rap device with either an autoblock or prussik. I like the autoblock but have never been able to rig it such that it doesn't hinder my brake hand moving all the way down and back.

Judging from the rigs from Euroland, I'm guessing that most of the anchors are bolted or...?

[sfotex]

Who backs up there rap device with either an autoblock or prussik. I like the autoblock but have never been able to rig it such that it doesn't hinder my brake hand moving all the way down and back.


I do the old prusik above the belay device, some people dislike this method, but it seems like the easiest to manage for me..

[Will]

When climbing (Ice or rock) I back up my rap device. I have yet to use a harness when skiing, so the situation is slightly different. I used to use an autoblock or Kleimheist, but I found they twisted my ropes and kinked them up. They are quicker to set up and take down than a prussic though.

Method I like the most (assuming you've got the gear, also as I'm giving advice out on the internet, this is the super-redundant safety dork way):

1) Girth hitch 2 slings though your leg loops and waist belt.
2) Clip your rap biner through the slings. It should now be extended about foot away from your harness.
3) Put a prussic on the brake ropes. Clip it to your belay loop. Since the rap device is extended away from your body you shouldn't need to clip the prussic to your leg loop. Check to be sure though, but if you've done it right the prussic will come tight before it jams up against the rap device.
4) Loosen the prussic on the rope and keep one hand on it as you descend. If you do it right the prussic will smoothly slide down the rope and only lock up if let go.

Advantages:
- Provides a smoother rap. It's easier to control the rate of descent.
- Keeps the belay device away from your clothes and in plain sight, a good thing if you've got lots of bulky winter clothes and such.
- Allows you to more easily descend with a heavy pack or second person (who, let's say, has stupidly dropped their belay device. (How does this work? Take another, longer, sling and clip that one through the belay device then attach it to your parter. They "sit" below you as you both descend. Positions can be reversed.
- Keeping the prussic below the rap device means that it only has to hold the weight it takes to lock off the rap device. If the prussic is above the rap device it has to hold your full body weight. You can lock off a rap device with just a few fingers, you cannot hold yourself on a rope with just a few fingers.
- Much easier to unweight the prussic and continue on your way.

Disadvantages:
- Requires lots of crap.
- Takes a bit longer to set up.
- Clearing big roofs can be a bitch if your body is below the roof and your rap device is caught on some nubbin just at the lip.

[LeeLau]

Thought I'd bump this as I was searching for light weight skis and this came up. Also snowbridges are getting a little thin here so its probably a good time to bump this.

I don't like Tiblocs. Shirk's mentioned that I could try them out as a backup to prussiks. Personally I don't want to carry more pieces then necessary so Im reluctant.

My review here:
-----------------

At the urging of some people I tried these out in place of Prussiks for ascending ropes. I guess under ideal conditions they would be great. But I want these things to work in the field with particular emphasis on crevasse rescue.

So I put on full winter gear. Harness. Big packs. Forget the chest harness just to add a little bit of sport to this. Go up to my 2nd story window and "fall" out. So I look a tad ridiculous outside my house; my wife belaying me (that's apparently what happens if you fall in a crevasse with a heavy pack and no chest harness). Did I mention its raining cats and dogs and no neighbours are out to watch thank god!

With gloves and mittens on; its not as easy to operate these ascenders especially hanging upside down. I right myself up and then tie off the pack but even so these things are fiddly - moreso then prussiks. I can see how they would tear a rope's kermantle.

After I got up the rope and found that they do work fine in that regard, I built a z-pulley using the ascender. It works but I wonder how it would be with an icy rope? It certainly works fine when its raining cats and dogs.

To make a long story short, I returned them to MEC and got my refund.

Here is what they look like. I did read the manual!

[LeeLau]

Has anyone here ever tried the dmm revolver biners with the built-in pulleys for light self rescue work? If they were a little cheaper I might be tempted to try 'em out myself...

http://www.mtntools.com/cat/rclimb/biners/dmmrevolvercarabiners.htm

I can't believe I've never heard of this before but that's what i get for not looking at climbing gear porn mags.

From Andrew McLean's straightchuter blog - http://straightchuter.com/2009/10/new-addition-to-glacier-kit

I'll be getting one myself. So simple

[shirk]

Most importantly does it come in purple?


I plan on clipping it to the Spectra accessory cord on my titanium spork.

[Big Steve]

Whoa bro, that DMM Revolver biner is the tits. Good idea for stocking stuffer for my climbing buddies. Thanks for posting that.


A thinner static rope would definitely lighten up the overall load and is super nice for rappelling but is not really recommended for glacier travel while walking tied in. But then again, how often do you actually do that?
How often? Prolly 200 days over the past 25 years, i.e., often enough.

Hell no, don't do roped travel with a static rope. A 20-foot crevasse fall on a static rope with a hard lip could break your back and it would also could put too much force on the guy arresting your ass. 7.7mm Ice Floss works fine for glacier travel, so static rope would not result in all that much weight savings.

Also, if using a skinny rope like Ice Floss or the Beal 8.0, be certain to test its compatibility with your belay device. ATC XP works fine with the Ice Floss. I've rapped on a single strand of Ice Floss with an ATC XP, and I've got a big butt. I'm not a Figure 8 fan -- if I'm going to live with the twisting of F8 I might as well leave the belay device at home and use a Munter hitch for belaying and 4-biner method for rapping.

[Huck_Schmuck]

I've been coveting them for a long time now. Will probably end up with one soon enough, pricey but nicey. I'm not a weight weiny and carry 2 x nylon add ons, the largish diameter seems to work well even if they don't slide that well...

[JoeStrummer]

I like Tiblocs. I have practiced with them, no issues using them, and if your goal is to get the fuck out of a crevasse chop chop they are the ticket for me.

I used to carry a pulley on glaciers after memorizing all that Freedom of the Hills dogma. Now I just work on my Z-Rig skills. And not falling into holes.

That biner looks interesting, though, thanks for giving me an excuse to buy more shit.

[Big Blue]

Instead of using pulleys and setting up a z-rig (3:1) you can just set up a 4:1 using two dyneema slings piggybacked on eachother. The super thin dyneema slings running over a biner actually produce less friction than a regular rope running over a pulley (at least one with bushings). If this is complete gibberish to you, tell me and i'll try to draw up a diagram.

[LeeLau]

Instead of using pulleys and setting up a z-rig (3:1) you can just set up a 4:1 using two dyneema slings piggybacked on eachother. The super thin dyneema slings running over a biner actually produce less friction than a regular rope running over a pulley (at least one with bushings). If this is complete gibberish to you, tell me and i'll try to draw up a diagram.

yeah I have to say I don't quite visualize it. A diagram would be wonderful.

Joe - in 10+ years of stumbling around glaciers I have yet to accidentally fall in a slot. My only practise is being deliberately lowered. So your words of wisdom to not bloody well fall in are well taken. Having said that, keeping a tight rope will also help. So not carrying a pulley? Do you just substitute a standard biner for the prussik nearest the slot?

[Big Steve]

I've had no problems with Tiblocs. They are amazing little gizmos, and don't ice up like prusiks can. If I expect to encounter a fixed line/hand line on a route, then I carry a couple Ropemans and rig them up for my prusiks.

Joe and Lee, I've been doing glacier travel for 25 years, and my most severe fall left me dangling by my arm pits over a yawner covered by a snow lip. Fortunately, my rope partners had a tight rope on me and arrested quickly, allowing me to crawl out on my own before I shit my pants. I've punched through and dangled a single leg a few times, always able to walk out of it.

As Joe and Lee observe, preventing a fall is objective #1. I've had plenty of opportunities to fall in a crevasse because I usually lead the rope on the ascent. A vital piece of glacier gear for the rope leader is a probe pole! As Joe and Lee well know, routefinding through a crevasses involves both art and science. The "book learning" rules are certainly valid, e.g., convex vs. concave, terrain changes, but there is no substitute for instinct developed through experience.

[Big Steve]

Yeah, Big Blue, I'd like to see a sketch of that.

Adding the following comment as a public service:

If one plans to do roped glacier travel while on skis, practice team arrests with skis on. In some conditions, it is damn near impossible to arrest while wearing skis. Trying is believing. The key is to arrest ASAP if a rope partner goes down. IMO, in most conditions while wearing skis, two Whippets and quick reaction time is better than a single ice axe. Some may disagree on that. Consider the difficulty of team arrest w/skis when deciding whether to rope up while skinning and skiing. An alternative is for everyone to travel while wearing harnesses and have two guys carry ropes (keeping those two guys apart while traveling). There was a good discussion over on TAY a couple years on this issue.

Also, it's important to understand the effect of a chest sling on team arrest. The chest sling helps keep one upright in the case of a crevasse fall (a particularly nice thing when wearing a full pack) but it also introduces a longer lever if a team member goes down. The only way to fully understand this is to practice team arrests, w/ and w/o skis, w/ and w/o chest slings.

[Big Blue]

OK, here's a quick setup that I did in my garage. Didn't bother to actually attach it to a rope, but you should get the idea. With this system the drawback is that you need to reset the rope grab (in the case a tibloc, but you could use a prussik or other knot just as easily) after each pull. Also, you need to mind the ratchet (again, either a tibloc or knot) yourself. However, once you've practiced with it a little bit and get a rhythm going it's pretty straightforward and fast. It also gives you better mechanical advantage, and is easier to operate in confined spaces.

Oh yeah, using round-stock biners really helps reduce the friction losses. And make sure you use these super thin dyneema slings. the thicker ones have more nylon in them and produce greater friction. You want ones that are almost entirely dyneema and have a very tight weave (the ones I use are from mammut).

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=66852&stc=1&d=1256749634

[LeeLau]

Big Blue. That's awesome. Thanks. I have to try to teach some rope partners some systems. This diagram and diagrams out of the Andy Selter's books are very useful.

@Steve - I actually practised a single man rescue and like you said - its pretty bloody difficult. To ski arrest, as soon as a fall happens I have to immediately flop down on the side and dig in the ski edges and even then the fall happens quickly. Of course this was practised on a short slope and not a real slot. Establishing the anchor was very difficult. As soon as I took off the skis to try to build a t-slot I started sliding towards the lip. I had to one-arm the picket in the snow and that was not easy. Like you said, practise was the key.

Also unfortunately, I'm usually the one leading through the glaciers so I'd like to encourage my partners to practise more. It does me no good to have all this stuff dialed if I'm the one dangling in the slot. Just another consideration I suppose

[Big Blue]

Big Blue. That's awesome. Thanks.

No problem. Sorry it's not a better pic. One other benefit to this system that I just thought of is that you actually have a loop to pull on instead of just pulling on the rope like with a z-rig. I'm guessing trying to pull on 8mm line with gloved hands is not really that easy.

[khakis]

just thought this slipped off the first page too fast. Freakin brilliant!
bump...

[hafilax]

Big Blue, do you run the rope through another tibloc or prussic on the anchor to lock it off while you reset the rope pulling end?

[LightRanger]

I was working in a shop when the Revolver first came out and lusted after a couple for alpine climbing. Saw Andrew's post. Good advice there.

Keep up the discussion gentlemen. I haven't done any glacier travel yet, but I'm sure I will in the future.

[rod9301]

Mammut makes a very light harness. I would leave home the heavy figure 8, use a carabiner instead. I second using a light weight pulley. If you have to get someone out of a crevasse by yourself, it is unbelievably hard. I think however that, if you travel with just one partner, you need a tiblock, to construct a c-rig to pull yourself out of a crevasse that has an overhanging lip. Without the c-rig on your chest, chances are you partner cannot pull yo ass out.

[Big Blue]

Big Blue, do you run the rope through another tibloc or prussic on the anchor to lock it off while you reset the rope pulling end?

yeah, that's the ratchet, which I left out of the photo. If you use a prussik you can just attach it to the same biner that the slings are anchored to. with a tibloc you'd probably need another biner (wouldn't want the edges of the tibloc to cut the slings if it moved around).

[LeeLau]

bump - just practised all the glacier rescue crap again and thought this deserved to be re-read

[SouthCentralShralper]

There is a lot of information all over the place in this thread. Some of it is useful and some of it is down right dangerous. If you want to learn the ins and outs of crevasse rescue learn it from a Certified Guide. There are some great books out there written by certified guides, and they are a lot cheaper than hiring one. Check out: Backcountry Skiing by Martin Volken and Margaret Wheeler, and/or Free Skiing by Jimmy Oden. They both have in depth chapters on crevasse rescue and what equipment is necessary.

Here's some of my 2 cents:
-Don't use static ropes - they are not designed to hold a shock loading fall and like someone else said, they'll rip you in half! You want one rope that can do everything, raps, glacier travel etc. 8 mm x 40 m is about the minimum for crevasse rescue. BTW ropes wont break hauling someone out of a crevasse...
-Ditch the figure 8 - it's old school, heavy and twists the ropes terribly. There are newer, lighter belay devices out there, but unless you are doing lots of rappeling (Chamonix) I'd use a Munter (Italian) hitch.
-Ditch the tubular webbing - new Dyneema slings are light and easy to manipulate. Yes they melt at lower temps, so don't use them as friction hitches, use 6-7 mm cordalette for that or 5 mm gemini.
-Some modern light weight biners would lighten the kit considerably.
-Pulleys decrease friction but add weight. They are not necessary but can help. More importantly, padding the lip of the cravasse with your ski poles will reduce massive amounts of friction and aid in getting the victim over the lip. 2 biners for the rope to run through = more friction, not less.
-Tiblocs, like pulleys, are nice but not necessary. They wont "sheath" a rope unless they are shock loaded. Prusiks can do the same thing.
-the minimum I'd carry is: 4 non lockers, 3 lockers, 2 dbl length slings (dyneema), 1 cordalette 6-7 mm x 20', 2 prusiks 5 mm gemini, 1 ice screw 21 cm, light weight ski harness (lighter = less comfort; it's a balance between time carrying and time hanging), and a rando rope.
-Study and practice your systems. Big Blue's system wont work. There is no ratchet on the haul, so what he pulls up will go down as soon as tension is released. Also, because it's built entirely out of slings, he'll only be able to haul someone the length of the sling. He needs to build it out of the rope AND the slings, (yes I see the "attach to rope" caption. It still wont work. Picture it).
-If your webbing/rope/harness is 10 years old or more it is time to RETIRE IT! Nylon is plastic and plastic deteriorates with time. Petzl says 10 years for all soft goods. Your life (or you buddy's) is worth the extra $100 for new gear!

Cheers!

[Crass3000]

Trying to lighten up my glacier harness….this is the one I’ve been dragging around for the last 3 seasons..


Dude I think that is the most lightweight harness I have ever seen. Any less and you would be wearing a g-string. Add an ascender on there and you are golden (unless you have a prusik system). I'd much rather have the ascender.

[khakis]

2 biners for the rope to run through = more friction, not less.
wrong. the main element causing drag here is the sharp angle at which the rope is being pulled over the biner. Reducing that results in more benefit than the detriment resulting from the additional drag caused by the surface area of a second biner.


Big Blue's system wont work. There is no ratchet on the haul, so what he pulls up will go down as soon as tension is released. Also, because it's built entirely out of slings, he'll only be able to haul someone the length of the sling. He needs to build it out of the rope AND the slings, (yes I see the "attach to rope" caption. It still wont work. Picture it).
wrong. just because you didn't learn it in "Certified Guide" school doesn't mean it won't work. Obviously this system requires two rope grabs (just like a z-rig where the victim is incapacitated). Big Blue made that clear in his later post. Just pretend that instead of your rope zig-zagging through the pulley system, the dyneema slings are doing the zig-zagging. Which is great, because they are slippery and give you a loop to pull on.

[SouthCentralShralper]

khakis-
2 biners = more surface area which = more friction. Try it. I didn't believe it either until I tried it.
As far as Big Blue's system goes... explain to me how you are going to attach a ratchet to the dyneema slings? What are you going to use? Regardless of the ratchets, visualize the system: you pull up on the strand that has the arrow pointing up, you have about 10" of throw before before it comes tight on the red biner, which raises the middle biner 5", which in turn raises the bottom biner (which is attached to the rope and your buddy in the hole) 2.5". Now what do you do? You've just hauled your buddy 2.5" and have no way of reseting the system to do it again. A 4:1 mechanical advantage system means that (friction aside) you can haul a 100lbs with only 25lbs of force. It also means that to raise someone 1' you need to pull 4' of rope through the system. Big Blues sling set up is a 4:1, but it is not practical for hauling someone out of a crevasse. Try it. No need to go bashing guides or "guide schools".

[snoboy]

The system with the slings is meant to be an attached system, with a separate ratchet on the load rope, as has been made clear at least a couple times now. It will work.

2 biners vs 1 biner = both options turn the rope 180°, and both touch the rope over about the same surface area,... and both would have an efficiency of about 50% vs a pulley with about 95%.

[SouthCentralShralper]

Ah-ha! I read the fine print and see where Big Blue mentions the ratchet on the load strand at the anchor... that will work, (and I'll make myself look like an ass!). But, as I said before, you'll be hauling your buddy out inches at a time. Better to have more throw (10'-12') and be able to haul him out feet at a time. I'll see if I can't take a pic of the system I use. Canadian Drop Loop anyone?

[LeeLau]

I like the drop loop but it does use up a lot of rope

[Big Steve]

So, Lee, in Canada they call it the "drop loop," eh? Do you guys call Canadian bacon "bacon?"

Gotta luv the CDL. The simplicity and quick set up of the CDL is great. No need to reset and low drag too. In my mind, it's the go-to method if: (a) the fallen climber is able to clip into and tend the pulley; (b) the party has enough rope; and (c) the party has enough collective muscle to use the CDL over a Z.

If possible, it's best to set up the CDL with a ratchet brake (prusik, Tibloc or ascender). The fallen climber can also assist with a prusik on the fixed side of the rope (in which case a ratchet brake may be unnecessary). Bomber anchor required, of course, but that's true for Z and Z variants too.

[khakis]

No need to go bashing guides or "guide schools".

not bashing, just disagree with your implication that skills can't be learned without paying someone to teach them to you.

[SouthCentralShralper]

Khakis- I agree... money's tight, which is why I recommended the literature.

And for everyone, if you haven't checked out "FREE SKIING" by Jimmy Oden, you must. Definitely worth every penny!

[johngenx]

We do a major crevasse rescue practice at least a couple times a year, and the 6:1 (theory, actual is less thanks to friction) of the CDL with a Z stacked on it seems to work best. Yes, it uses quite a bit of rope, but as we're usually traveling three people with a 60M 7.5-8.5, we have it to use.

I've been working on cutting grams with respect to my glacier travel rack (so I can carry bottled beer) and have found the ArcTeryx A300a harness is about the lightest harness that is still supportive, has a belay loop, and two real gear loops. Thanks to no rear loops, it works well with a pack.

Those skinny Mammut (or other brand) slings are awesome and can do lots of things. With the right set-up, they can work as friction hitch, saving carrying heavy static line.

I still carry a screw, but as noted, mostly in case I'm the one in the slot, but a 22cm screw does all kinds of things, so it's nice to have (make Abalakovs for rapping, etc).

Years back, SMC introduced the little CR mini-pulley, and I've been using that, but lately I've been thinking about revising that, and the revolver 'biner might be the trick. Take a locker and the pulley off and replace it with that? Worth a thought.

[SouthCentralShralper]

Just a note on the Revolver biner: I added one to my rock rack for rescue and after building a few 5:1s the pulley stopped swiveling freely. I guess the pin that it spins on is bent? Regardless, it's still a great idea and I'd probably get another one. In fact I still carry the one I have and justify it by saying the smooth stock of the pulley probably has less friction than a regular biner, especially an ultra light one that isn't round stock.

I agree with johngenx, the 6:1 CDL is what I use if I have the rope for it.

[Crass3000]

Do you guys call Canadian bacon "bacon?"


Nope I think they call it ham. I went to a McDonalds in Thunder Bay, ON and asked for Canadian bacon. After a couple second pause from the employee I could tell that they were pretty confused.

[zion zig zag]

Those skinny Mammut (or other brand) slings are awesome and can do lots of things. With the right set-up, they can work as friction hitch, saving carrying heavy static line.


I thought that dyneema shouldn't be used for friction hitches due to the low melting point?

[Kai]

Has anyone here ever tried the dmm revolver biners with the built-in pulleys for light self rescue work? If they were a little cheaper I might be tempted to try 'em out myself...

http://www.mtntools.com/cat/rclimb/biners/dmmrevolvercarabiners.htm


Yes.

I have used them.

They are very close to the performance of a lightweight pulley, at much less weight (and unlike the pulley, they have other uses.) I still take one real pulley, but the rest are all revolvers.

Here is my glacier kit:

2 “revolver” biners
2 “hotwire” biners
2 tiblocs
Petzl “Mini” prusik pulley
leg loops for texas prussic

[Crass3000]

What about pickets? Just use your skis?


Yes.

I have used them.

They are very close to the performance of a lightweight pulley, at much less weight (and unlike the pulley, they have other uses.) I still take one real pulley, but the rest are all revolvers.

Here is my glacier kit:

2 “revolver” biners
2 “hotwire” biners
2 tiblocs
Petzl “Mini” prusik pulley
leg loops for texas prussic

[SouthCentralShralper]

What about pickets? Just use your skis?


You can use a picket, but I've always T-Trenched my skis or if it's firm, an axe.

[johngenx]

I thought that dyneema shouldn't be used for friction hitches due to the low melting point?

Depends. At the front of the Z, no problem, as the rope is not running through it until you are moving it yourself to reset the ratchet.

As for pickets, I like 'em. The size of the t-slot required to bury a ski means a long time until your anchor is set. Burying my axe can be a pain as I've lost a tool. So, depending on what else I might be carrying, and where we're going, a picket is quite useful. A short one, though.

[Kai]

What about pickets? Just use your skis?

Sometimes I will take a picket. Sometimes not. Depends on whether I'm climbing or skiing, and what other gear I have.

[Big Blue]

Ah-ha! I read the fine print and see where Big Blue mentions the ratchet on the load strand at the anchor... that will work, (and I'll make myself look like an ass!). But, as I said before, you'll be hauling your buddy out inches at a time. Better to have more throw (10'-12') and be able to haul him out feet at a time. I'll see if I can't take a pic of the system I use. Canadian Drop Loop anyone?

Actually those slings are four feet long (double-length). So you can lift your buddy about a foot for each pull. I've used this system to haul some pretty large people by myself. It works and it's light.